Knicks Fanatics

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RIP Van Donnie Tourtoise’s 2010 Tunnel Vision Conundrum!

(This offering was originally posted as comment #26 in the “David Lee Is Not Happy With The Knicks” tread.  Let’s give a Fanatic welcome to O&B’s first non-LBE penthouse offering in the new diggs. (About time!))



The Knicks under Isiah turned over a terrible roster inherited from the layden years. Thomas then used the draft and trades to bring in other young talent with upside and WARTS!

The WARTS on the players acquired to be the teams leader on the court, Starbury, and franchise big man, Eddy “The Giant Midget” Curry where acquisitions of experienced players to help steady a team built primarily through the draft. Add to that group s one dimensional player overvalued at the MLE, Jared Jefferies, and overpaid one way palyers, Z-Bo and Crawford, in an era before the importance of money ball and a tightening cap started to become a GMs reality and reasoning and the Knicks young core were set up for a let down of a mismatched roster with a disjointed leadership and structure.

I think Walsh this time around intended well by acquiring either Jason Kidd or Grant Hill, he perhaps concluded that the young nucleus inherited by Zeke and recently acquired during his tenure required players whose pedigree and approach to the game would provide the necessary leadership required for a currently wayward roster to build forward towards the future. Giving Walsh credit, that was a way better idea than acquiring malcontents, percieved or real, whose impact on the team failed to pull them from a decades long morass of underachievement, despite those very malcontented players very promising upside.

That said, acquiring players near the tail end of the career, while solid in spirit, is a short term move whose long term application may not be present when the Knicks really need those players talents and efforts to take the next necessary steps in what many a Knicks fan hopes will be a playoff run of some signifigance. Walsh perhaps was hoping that the signing of either Hill or Kidd would help construct the bridge of professionalism and pedigree that would bridge a complete overhaul in culture leading into the oft mentioned Shangrila summer of 2010.

But again the question would be at what price?… Fading vets who might not have anything left in the tank when the Alpha Dog Free agent needs his teamates to step up? Sure many of the younger players may have the professionalism and work ethic and habit of a HIll or Kidd rub off on them,.. but the playoff wars requires “all hands on deck” and fading players are like a glass jaw on a prize fighter,… ones to be exploited by capable teams with good coaching who are capable of exploiting matchups.

In the meantime,… players like Sessions who are cost effective considering their age and production, assuming acceptance of a reasonable price tag along an MLE offer, are given the importance of a tick on the Knicks radar list. What’s worse the one of the most professional and hardest working of the teams own products, David Lee, is an afterthought to veterans soon to be entering the nadir of their careers.

The question begs to be answered do Dolan and Donnie not trust their current sideline care takers to incrementally increase the needed professionalism, dedication and work ethic needed to steer the team in an appealing and more competitive direction for the oncoming of the 2010 bonanza? Would not retaining David Lee and acquiring Sessions to head the team and provide it leadership while they would still be very much in their primes when paired with a 2010 free agent, Nilo and Chandler not be as plausible a route as having their overpriced vets fade in the intensity of the playoffs?

No doubt, the economic situation has put a damper on 2010, and their appears now more than ever a desperation to pinch every penny and attempt to expedite every albatross. But while expediting every albatross contract, Curry, Jefferies (b/c their price per production is not favorable to the Knicks), is the right way to go, jettisoning home grown talent or failing to acquire young talent on the come for fear of not being able to afford a robin to Free Agent A’s batman is gamble that insist that A and B can and will certainly be signed come 2010. Does anyone have that kind of certified foresight? I think not?

Then again why not get one piece of the puzzle in 2010, sure up the base this year, (Lee and Sessions), and then see if their are any players in 2011 who can be the Robin or the Batman to compliment the player acquired in 2010? That way other teams can’t lord over the organizations desperation to expedite Jefferies’ or Curry’s contracts. Better said that however, Curry’s or Jefferies contracts expire it will be handled in a manner that the organization does not cut off it’s nose to spite it’s face to present an overbitten smile for one mere fateful date but rather has flexibility in it’s plans for the future.


July 30, 2009 - Posted by | David Lee, Donnie Walsh, Eddie Curry, Isiah Thomas, Jamal Crawford, Jared Jeffries, New York Knicks, Stephon Marbury


  1. Why are some Fanatics imortalizing Sessions and
    Gallinari without evidence of them earning such
    praise through play? Pray, tell me?

    Comment by Peaceman | July 30, 2009 | Reply

    • O.K. Peaceman,I’m one of them.However,I would not call imortalizing,I would call it “HOPE” for change, knowing someone different is coming to help the team.

      Comment by DLTKnicks | July 30, 2009 | Reply

    • ….says the President of the Morris Almond Fan Club.

      Comment by Paul | July 30, 2009 | Reply

      • ROFLMAO!!!

        True dat PaulNoize!

        Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 30, 2009

      • Noizeman,
        YOU posted Almonds Stats as a prolific
        scorer in the D-league. Those who watch College
        hoop saw what Almond can do. What did Sessions or Galinari
        do in either????? In addition to that Fact Almond is
        virtually FREE to our Cap! Suck on that a while~

        Comment by Peaceman | July 31, 2009

    • “It’s ain’t nothin’ but the Devil.”

      Comment by Paul | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  2. LIVES, I read your post on he SM Horror series on MSM…The Ridiculous will be televised…Brother acting like Dr. Funkenstein Squared to the 10th Power…What a Silly Wabbit!

    More importantly my Jersey living Brotha, I was moved by your post on your recent visit to the Civil Rights Museum and 16th Street Baptist Church. Touring both is difficult if you lived during that period. The program done at the church brought righteous angry tears to my eyes during my visit. Going down into the basemenrt of the edifice was the most difficult. I also found standing across the street in the park hard, because when I stood their, I closed my eyes and my minds eye ran the reel of Bull Connors and his motley crew hurling water from fire hoses, and sicking German Shepards on young women, ole woman, and the likes. Birmingham, is not NYC or Chicago, but it is the place Where so few Sacrificed for so Many…As my fellow Hamptonian Freeman Hrowboski once told me, it was Home, church, and I had just pled with those little girls a few days before….

    After reading your post, talking BBALL seem quite trite…
    Recent evidence and future acts we illustrate clearly, that not a whole lot has changed… Don’t read the Headline, read the by-lines…Gents The Race War is COMING!

    Enjoy your trip LIVES with the Mrs., and cherish that you and her shared that expereince together…What a trip down memory lane.


    Keep CRACKIN

    Comment by Cooleyhigh | July 30, 2009 | Reply

    • Cool MD,
      Surreal–no doubt. Wondering the effects of living and telling the experience of visiting Goree Island and the Door of No Return. Stay tuned for the debrief come what may be in September.

      Steady as IT changes after looking in the mirror.


      Comment by Steady | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • My brudder, it is always a pleasure to hear from you and to read your insights and about your travels.

      Yes, that is one exhausting experience. That anyone could be so hateful, no matter how long ago, and that the government could allow the murderers to go free for so long is still infuriating. But justice rolls down like a mighty river. . . .

      We have come a long way on the shortest leg of a marathon of a journey. I don’t think there will ever be a race war (perhaps minor skirmishes) in this country — the major battle will be one for economic justice. The strength will lie in those who understand that strategic alliances based on common economic interests and vision, not common facial features, will sustain a movement and create meaningful change.

      The current dialogue about racial divisions is contrived, commercialized and barely reflects reality. The media is still in control of the message. Amstel light doesn’t solve shyte — we could all agree to disagree over some drinks and chips, but when does a teachable moment result in more than a pop quiz? When does the teachable moment transform into a text book example of how to change hearts and improve minds. No drinking and driving a important point home here. Check the headlines. . . .arresting a man for being “Housed While Black” or being “Belligerent While Black” is still acceptable, especially if it leads to a Presidential Pardon-me moment. . . .

      No, I don’t believe a race war is coming —

      (Man, we had a great time. I got home after a 19 hour drive from Helena to New Jersey. I am Beat-it.)

      Comment by livesinnewjersey | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  3. Cablevision said James Dolan, its chief executive, also will take on the role of executive chairman of the spun-off Madison Square Garden group. Hank Ratner, Cablevision’s vice chairman, will add the titles of president and CEO of the new company.

    Cablevision said for now it is not considering a sale of Madison Square Garden or any of its businesses, as well as any other operations of the cable operator.

    In its earnings report, the company said the Madison Square Garden unit had an operating loss of $8.4 million as revenue fell by 1 percent to $207.3 million. Lower play-off revenues, fewer concerts and other entertainment events, coupled with higher severance costs and salary increases led to the loss.

    The group also includes Radio City Music Hall as well as its MSG, MSG Plus and Fuse television channels. MSG and MSG Plus air sports and entertainment programming, such as the Knicks’ basketball and Rangers’ hockey games, while Fuse is a music television channel aimed at the youth.

    Cablevision said it added 102,800 lines of video, Internet and voice services in the quarter from the prior quarter, and up 383,200 from a year ago. The number of basic video subscribers fell, however, by 8,700 quarter-over-quarter and 38,000 from a year ago. But more customers signed up for digital cable TV, high-speed Internet and phone services.

    The cable TV, Internet and phone operations saw revenue rise by 5 percent to $1.36 billion and operating income was up 15 percent to $327.4 million. The average monthly revenue received from subscribers rose 5.6 percent to $139.69, helped in part by price increases.

    The company ended the quarter with 3.32 million subscribers in the New York metro area, down 17,000 from about 3.34 million a year ago.

    Copyright 2009 Associated Press.

    The more things look like they may be changing, the more they stay the same.Jimmy deserves his own shop, a chop shop in the Bx.

    Comment by Tman | July 30, 2009 | Reply

    • T’Man

      Is it me or is Cablevision pulling the fans legs, they’re selling, (impliedly), their not selling,.. Walsh is in play, he’s talking pursuing on the ball to bad that rolling isn’t a ball moving towards something just yet, rather merely a ferris wheel for the MSMs rumor mill! LOL!

      Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 30, 2009 | Reply

    • Tman,
      Steady reading the MSM and descriptions of the maneuverings at CVC. Both concerns are playing with the public hairs. In one hand, they’re saying wait until 2010 (keep buying tickets, LBJ is coming, don’t mind our dust as we renovate, bla-zeh, bla-zeh). And on the other hand, they’re saying, we’re “spinning off” not “selling off”. Well, Steady says BULLWHARKY. Only with unlimited salary potential (or an owner’s cap not a player’s cap) does LBJ et al. come to NY.
      From a Steady vantage point, the acquisition of Newsday by CVC which also the NYK (for now) was all about getting corners/real estate/larger footprint in Strong Island. Verizon had two feet up the Dolan Hershey Turnpike. The Dolans had to maximize the hits. They may have overpaid for Newsday but Steady told them to get it By Any Means Necessary! And they did (LOL).
      The Knicks are DEAD. Long live the KNICKERbockers.

      Don’t have no connects like Cooley. Don’t have no intel like Peaceman. Don’t have no market insides like Statesman. Just Blogin!

      Steady as the G.R.E.A.T sings She’s out of My Life.


      Comment by Steady | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  4. Thanks for the shine in the Penthouse Lives

    Man Seems like Rip Van Donnie is putting our fellow bloggers to sleep, although word from the Daily News’, Frank Isola is that Donnie is on the verge of deciding between Ramon Session and Jamal Tinsley by the end of this week.

    Time for the Fanatics to sound off on who’d they prefer? May a poll for the group.

    Good evening gents

    Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 30, 2009 | Reply

    • O&B,

      I vote Sessions!…and yes,Donnie is putting me to sleep.

      Comment by DLTKnicks | July 30, 2009 | Reply

  5. Congratulations O&B on the rise of your LAP to the Annals Knicklore. (LOL) Now watch 2010 come through like Ex-Lax.

    Steady paying tribute to IT and the G.R.E.A.T. MJ.


    Comment by Steady | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Steady as IT is!

      Thanks for the good words. I’m looking forward to one of your own submissions. In due time of course.

      But you and T’Man are real neuron teasers with them cryptic and deep verses. I’m an average IQ dude, jugando nomas, and them verses are tough yet good reads.

      Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 31, 2009 | Reply

      • Steady is always willing to give a translation sometimes in first person even.

        Comment by livesinnewjersey | July 31, 2009

  6. I feel like crying the way Marbury did on
    youtube when we have stooped so low that a
    “Session’s” signing is the best we can do.
    I’m tired of eating shyte sandwiches and
    told they are made of Prime Rib. Call it what
    you may, however, the two draft picks we selected
    are indeed on a road to Mike Sweetney status.
    Curry has lost 30 pounds ” let plan a Parade after
    they lift another banner in MSG.” Truth be told
    Walsh needs to make some Fugging moves and flush 2010.
    I could pick 11 players from W4TH street and be ahead of
    this current group of Dickheads we call Knicks.

    Comment by Peaceman | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Peace,
      It looks like the intention is to change the face of the franchise. Maybe you have the connects with The Professor from And-1. Otherwise, White Chocolate is getting a chance with a “make good” contract after the NBA colluded to keep him out of the NBA last year. Hell of a punishment for saying the LA Clippers suck and that coach is a guard killa. Whaddaya think they are saying about []’Anfony?
      On my watch, 7 seconds are up. IT’s time for the Lil’ General in 2010.

      Just Blogin


      Comment by Steady | August 1, 2009 | Reply

      • ROFLMAO.

        Keep us apprised of your travels to African’s wannabe joint.

        Thanks for the month long dedication to the King of Popular Culture. Your creativity is an inspirational blast.

        Comment by livesinnewjersey | August 1, 2009

  7. Knicks may take Allen Iverson over Ramon Sessions

    The Milwaukee Bucks may be willing to let its young restricted free agent point guard, Ramon Sessions(notes), go in order to have enough cash to afford forward Hakim Warrick(notes). New York Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni apparently is very interested in signing Sessions but there may be a problem: Allen Iverson(notes).

    Knicks president Donnie Walsh apparently met with Iverson’s agent a few weeks ago and liked what he heard: the former superstar wants to salvage his career and would sign a mid-level deal (only $5.85 million!) for one season. The Knicks are still apparently holding out hope that it can have enough open salary-cap space next summer to lure one of the big-name free agents: LeBron James(notes), Chris Bosh(notes), Dwyane Wade(notes), etc.

    The 23-year-old Sessions, meanwhile, wants a multiyear deal. So if the Knicks sign Sessions, it could be the first time Walsh publicly shows that LeBron may be out of the team’s reach next summer

    Comment by Peaceman | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  8. The Knicks plan to make a run at free agent Ramon Sessions.

    DA’s Dish: Knicks Interested in Sessions
    By David Aldridge, TNT analyst
    Posted Jul 31 2009 5:49AM

    The New York Knicks have swung and missed so far in free agency this summer, but they’re on the verge of connecting with Milwaukee Bucks restricted free agent guard Ramon Sessions on an offer sheet for a significant part of the team’s $5.8 million exception, according to league sources–a move that would commit at least some of the team’s projected salary cap space for 2010 if the Bucks didn’t match.

    The Los Angeles Clippers are still in the mix for Sessions, who is expected to decide where to sign in the next day or so, according to a source. Clippers Coach Mike Dunleavy likes Sessions and still would like to get him even though Los Angeles picked up Sebastian Telfair from the Timberwolves last week as part of a trade for guard Quentin Richardson.

    Knicks president Donnie Walsh had told people around the league last week that the team was going to pass on Sessions, who emerged in two seasons in Milwaukee as an up-and-coming point guard prospect after being taken in the second round of the 2007 draft. But Coach Mike D’Antoni believes that the 23-year-old Sessions can be the “engine” for an up-tempo team just as Steve Nash was for D’Antoni in Phoenix, and Walsh is apparantly willing to go after him at his coach’s request.

    Because Sessions is a restricted free agent, any offer sheet he signs has to be for at least two seasons. That means the Knicks would have to pay Sessions for the 2010-11 season as well as this upcoming season and dip into the cap space that they’ve spent the past several months clearing in order to be able to go after the likes of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and Joe Johnson.

    It’s not clear if there’s a way the Knicks could acquire Sessions without impacting their 2010 room.

    The Bucks have maintained they’ll match any offer sheet for Sessions as long as it’s reasonable. Milwaukee saved millions of dollars over the next three years by trading forward Richard Jefferson to San Antonio in June for forwards Bruce Bowen and Kurt Thomas and center Fabricio Oberto, and declining to make a qualifying offer for forward Charlie Villanueva, who signed with Detroit. But the Bucks did make a qualifying offer on Sessions to keep their ability to match an offer sheet.

    Sessions averaged 12.4 points and 5.7 assists last season for the Bucks after a rookie season where he flashed his potential, averaging 7.5 assists in 17 games late in the 2007-08 season.

    Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  9. No Deal Yet for Knicks, Lee
    A meeting Thursday afternoon between Knicks restricted free agent David Lee and Walsh in New York may have helped clear the air between the forward and the team, but it didn’t lead to any movement toward a new deal.

    Lee and his agent, Mark Bartlestein, met with Walsh at the team’s practice facility in Greenburgh, N.Y., to discuss the stalemate between the two sides that has gone on since the start of free agency. Lee is seeking a multi-year deal that averages $10 to $12 million per season; the Knicks will not offer anything other than a one-year deal, in order to preserve potential salary cap space that would be used on next summer’s crop of free agents. They reiterated that position in the meeting with Lee.

    “It was a good meeting,” Bartlestein said by telephone. “Everyone needed to hear what everybody was coming from. But nothing was resolved, unfortunately. I just thought it was important for David and Donnie to sit down and see where each other is coming from.”

    Walsh did not respond to a text seeking comment.

    Bartlestein said both he and Lee understood the team’s position.

    “They have a plan for next season and they’re sticking to the plan, and that’s what makes it virtually impossible to get a deal done,” Bartlestein said. “They’ve got to do what they feel is best for the Knicks.”

    To be sure, Lee is in a Catch-22. Several teams have expressed an interest in acquiring Lee, but have been reluctant to make him an offer because they expect that the Knicks would match those offers. Yet the Knicks won’t offer Lee a multi-year deal in order to preserve their flexibility for next summer. It’s left the 26-year-old Lee, who finished third in the league in rebounding (11.7 per game) last season, frustrated. He sat out last week’s USA Basketball mini camp in Las Vegas because he didn’t want to risk injury while unsigned.

    He told, “Going forward, I thought I could still be a big piece of the puzzle–and it’s not as though I’m looking for a max contract, or talking about either me or LeBron (James). I thought it was something where we could get something done and they’d still have more than enough left over for what they wanted in the future, but apparently there’s some disagreement about that–just on how the Knicks want to move forward. And I think at this point they’re not completely sure what they’re going to do and how they want to proceed.”

    But now, all the teams that had cap room and were willing to use it this summer–most prominently, Detroit and Portland–have moved forward. The Pistons signed Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva and Chris Wilcox; the Trail Blazers signed free agent guard Andre Miller last week.

    Oklahoma City also has cap space, but the Thunder is not willing to use much of it this summer on any high-priced players, preferring to keep its powder dry for future years to either extend Kevin Durant, Jeff Green and Russell Westbrook or be able to bring in big-contract players from other teams to supplement its talent base.

    It would seem the only solution is for Lee to sign a one-year deal in New York for the mid-level exception of $5.85 million, play it out, and try to recoup his money next summer as an unrestricted free agent, when there will be a lot more teams with cap space available. But Bartlestein remains confident that a deal can made made this summer. He said he thought he had two potential deals for Lee last week, but the Knicks continued to balk at all scenarios.

    “There’s all kinds of ways to do it–you can do three-team deals, four-team deals,” he said. “It can be done…it wouldn’t shock me if something got done this week. It wouldn’t shock me if something didn’t get done until September.”

    Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  10. Peace: Signing Sessions for the MLE 4-5 year contract will not likely impact getting LBJ or another elite player–Wade, Melo, etc. Walsh was willing to offer an MLE for at least 2 years to Kidd or Hill, and perhaps Miller. Getting one of the superstars in 2010 requires shedding E. Curry and/or J.Jeffries contract(s); which Walsh plans to do notwithstanding who may get an MLE (at approximately $5.8 million x 4 or 5) this year.

    As for deciding between Tinsley and Sessions, I have been loudly screaming for Sessions once the Knicks finshed no better than 8th in the lottery. Sessions burned Duhon
    several times over the course of last season and kept Milwaukee in many games without Michael Redd. At 23, he has a better upside than anyone else available; he has real speed and fits an up-tempo D’Antonio style game but can also penetrate to the hoop or get off his own shot in a half-court offense. In my view, he should have been their first priority at the start of the free agency period. I am very confident about Sessions, but even if his fit on the team or performance should not work out, he would have more trade value for 2010 than either Duhon or Tinsley.

    While I am willing to give Tinsley a chance, despite character questions, I would only offer him a one-year deal at the minimum NBA veteran level. If they can exchange Duhon for Sessions with the Bucks, they can have the best of both worlds, a dynamic point guard in Sessions with veteran leadership in Tinsley (assuming maturity has improved his past off-court behavior). Tony Douglas could then gradually develop his game as a third point guard.

    Right now, I hope that Walsh pulls the trigger on Sessions.

    Comment by Post-up Prince | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  11. Warrick Agrees To Sign With Bucks

    Jul 31, 2009 12:41 PM EST
    Hakim Warrick has agreed to terms with the Milwaukee Bucks. The Cavs and Sixers were also pursuing Warrick. The athletic 6-9 Warrick can play both forward spots and will play ample minutes for Milwaukee.

    The Bucks are nearing the luxury tax threshold but still have rights to restricted free-agent Ramon Sessions. The Knicks are reportedly close to offering Sessions some part of their mid-level exception in a multi-year deal. The Bucks would have 10 days to match.

    Fanatics……This is a good sign for Sessions to NY.LGK!

    Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  12. Knicks team Salary outlook.Here are salaries the Knicks are committed to:

    Click here for Knicks Salary

    Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  13. Fanatics,

    I hate to be the skunk that shows up at the picnic, but why is there so much anticipation and excitement for Ramon Sessions, the next great point guard that D‘Antoni desires. I am ambivalent at best, but when I read comments such as “Session outplayed Duhon last year”, therefore we should acquire him. I wonder if we all are part of some fantasy.

    I understand Donnie Walsh’s hesitancy to sign Sessions, due to Mike D’Antoni falling in and out of love with point guards as often as Larry Elders talks shyte…….. All of the time. If you check D’Antoni’s history you will see that at Phoenix when he needed a backup point guard for Steve Nash he encouraged the GM to spend the full MLE on Marcus Banks who was rotting on the bench of a very bad Celtic team. D’Antoni kept Banks in the rotation the first 25 games and then buried him at the end of the bench for the rest of the season. Banks was a guy that he thought would EXCEL in his system and money was wasted. BTW–You only read about Isiah’s MLEs.

    Last year Mike D’Antoni convinced Walsh that Duhon could be a starter in his system and the Knicks spent the full MLE to get a career backup believing that he could start at least 2-years. Well after 1-year D’Antoni is “Looking for a New Love”. Can you imagine what the MSM would write if Zeke spent the MLE 2-consecutives years on a starting point guard? In addition Mike D’Antoni found a perfect backup point guard last off-season in Anthony Roberson. We saw how quickly Roberson was taken out of the rotation and eventually traded. Another guy that was supposed to thrive in Mike D’s system. What were the result?

    We now are craving for Ramon Sessions because he schooled the Knicks and Duhon last year. Word to the Fanatics. The Knicks have not played defense in 5-years, with last year being the worst. What point guard did not school the Knicks. Mike Taylor of the Clippers had a career scoring night. Jarret Jack looked like an all-star against the Knicks. Let’s keep things in perspective because next year we could be looking for the next Steve Nash to run Mike D’Antoni’s offense.

    Peace & Blessings

    Comment by Statesman2 | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • S2,

      You have got a good point.I remember last year Duhon was all that we ever wanted and now D’Antoni is ready to replace him.

      We have to admitt that Duhon did not get the job done last year.Only about a B- in my book.D’Antoni’s system(which I’m not a big fan of) need an engine to run it,for it to work as he likes…..whatever.

      I’m more for building a young team and letting them grow together.Sessions seems to have a bigger up-side than Duhon.Duhon will be nice off the bench.I just want to see change and that the management is not holding all it’s cards for 2010.

      Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Statesman, sadly last season was our not our worst defense in the past five years…..actually, it was our best defensive efficiency ranking in the last five years!

      We were 23rd last year, compared to:

      2008: 29th
      2007: 25th
      2006: 27th
      2005: 26th

      I know this pesky fact doesn’t fit the narrative all that well, but…

      Comment by Paul | July 31, 2009 | Reply

      • LOL @ Paul!

        There you go being a pest again with them Facts?

        But don’t figures lie and liers figure?

        Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 31, 2009

  14. The Knicks have waived Mouhamed Sene. One less big. No surprise.

    Comment by igmknicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  15. Knicks Have Negotiating Rights On Jason Williams

    Jul 31, 2009 3:26 PM EST
    The New York Knicks have been awarded exclusive rights to negotiate with veteran guard Jason Williams through Aug. 6 after putting in a waiver claim Friday, according to NBA front-office sources.

    In February, his agent, Dan Tobin, said the 10-year veteran was determined to come back in spite of the ruling that prevented Williams from latching on with a contender late last season.

    “We anticipated this decision,” Tobin said then. “So did Jason. But we look forward to seeing Jason back in the NBA in the 2009-10 season.

    “One of the reasons we applied for reinstatement now was that we’d like to try to accelerate the process of him coming back.”

    Via ESPN

    Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Yes! We’re just a Wally Szczerbiak signing or a Mike Miller trade away from getting Ed Drossman to renew his season tickets, LOL.

      Comment by Paul | July 31, 2009 | Reply

      • Poor Ed

        Hope he didn’t hang himself with that Walsh and Hahn loving rope of his! LOL!

        Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 31, 2009

      • Paul, your post made me laugh so damn hard,
        I spit out my coffee to keep from chokeing!

        @ LIVES….Congrats ….this blog has taken off
        like Eddy Curry in a Race for a Big Mac.
        My fellow Fanatics are truly the most intelligent
        and articulate Knick fans in the ENTIRE NET.
        LOVE YOU ALL as I blog from my daugters house in Hot ATL.

        Comment by Peaceman | August 1, 2009

      • You know what’s good Peace. There are no fanatics without Peaceman a/k/a the Atomic Dawg. BOOM.

        Comment by livesinnewjersey | August 1, 2009

  16. “Figures don’t lie, but Liars figure“.

    Paul every time you put stats out this comes to mind.

    Paul as you know there are many ways to determine defensive performance. In an attempt to discredit my statement, you selected one measure while ignoring the others. NoizePaul you said it best,

    .“I know this pesky fact doesn’t fit the narrative all that well, but…”
    Comment by Paul | July 31, 2009

    Paul if you re-read the narrative you will see that I referred to the number of points that individuals scored against the Knicks. If you would follow that logic (logic & context appear challenging for you), then the defensive stat that is applicable is points allowed, or opposition field goal percentage. The following are points allowed & defensive field goal percentage. As I stated last year was the worst.

    Points/Game FG%-OPPOSITION
    2008-2009 **107.81 ** .48
    2007-2008 103.5 .47
    2006-2007 100.3 .46
    2005-2006 102 .46
    2004-2005 99 .46

    Paul the holes in your previous discussion were exposed and it appears that either you are attempting to re-establish credibility, or you are looking for another spanking. Paul if the S & M-shyte, turns you on, that‘s your thing, but please find someone else to give you your jollies.

    Peace & Blessings

    Comment by Statesman2 | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Well, your bullshit little personal snipes aside, points allows & FG% are two other ways of measuring “defensive performance”, but I maintain that they are inferior to a defensive efficiency rating. Pace must be accounted for.

      That’s like saying all the point guards in 1994 sucked because their numbers were way down when they played us. Our pace affected the stats then in one extreme, and they do so now in the other extreme. For other teams that run a median pace, this is probably not too important – but to analyze last year’s Knicks squad, it is.

      As for your hole-poking prowess, i suggest you play like another blogger – and just beat it.

      Comment by Paul | July 31, 2009 | Reply

      • Paul

        I like your gumption bro, besides your the only other blogger who seems to know a thing or two about metal music.

        But here’s a question, and I’m not picking sides just asking, why play a pace that produces such consistent ill results in terms of opponents ppg and fgp? Isn’t it like using one’s face to beat down their oppositions fist? hahaha!

        Also isn’t pace a consideration in dictating defensive possessions and scoring opportunities?

        You guys battle it out, I’m certainly enjoying the debate.

        Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 31, 2009

  17. These are the numbers

    Points/Game FG%-OPPOSITION
    2008-2009 *107.81…………..** .48
    2007-2008 103.5 ……………. .47
    2006-2007 100.3 …………….. 46
    2005-2006 102. ……………… 46
    2004-2005 99.7……………… 46

    Peace & Blessings

    Comment by Statesman2 | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Paul hits states2 with a left jab. States2 counters
      with an overhand right….Noizeman goes down, Noizeman goes
      down, Noizeman goes down……this is Howard Cosell..out.

      Comment by Peaceman | August 1, 2009 | Reply

      • I need an instant replay on that one brohman; I don’t think you called that one right. States2 is taking it to the gut.

        Comment by livesinnewjersey | August 1, 2009

  18. Jason Williams
    to the Knicks? The New York Knicks have made a claim on point guard Jason Williams according to Marc Stein of ESPN. Williams was waived by the Los Angeles Clippers after being re-instated from the retired list.

    The Knicks now have five business days – through next Thursday – to negotiate a contract with Williams on an exclusive basis. If the two sides don’t come to an agreement, he will become an unrestricted free agent.

    Why they would do this is a legitimate question. With the Knicks still apparently considering tendering an offer sheet to point guard Ramon Sessions, it would seem that signing Jason Williams wouldn’t be worth it. Plus, new free agent Jamaal Tinsley is also said to be very interested in the Knicks, though he will be meeting with the Miami HEAT before making a decision.

    The Knicks also have veteran Chris Duhon and rookie Toney Douglass under contract who can play the position, as well as guard Larry Hughes.

    Given that it would seem the Knicks wouldn’t need more than one more point guard. The claim on Williams could be a just in case move, as in just in case Tinsley doesn’t come back from Miami. And it wouldn’t necessarily affect any decision on what to do on the Sessions front, since that signing would likely be a long-term move (affecting the 2010 cap room?!) whereas the other players are stopgaps.

    Some combinations of these moves would also likely mean restricted free agent Nate Robinson may not be getting anything from the Knicks, not even the one-year, $5 million offer that was being discussed a few days ago.

    So Knicks fans, while it doesn’t look like the team is bent on making a move towards long-term improvement – unless they get Sessions – they sure are active in talking to a lot of people. It’s better than nothing.

    Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • The following part of that post seemed tailored to my RIP Van Donnie Tortoise Rant hahaha!

      “So Knicks fans, while it doesn’t look like the team is bent on making a move towards long-term improvement – unless they get Sessions – they sure are active in talking to a lot of people. It’s better than nothing.”

      Comment by orangeandblue1 | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  19. The right to sign Jason Williams will not interfere with the pursuit of Ramon Sessions, according to ESPN:

    Nevertheless, it could mean Walsh is looking for leverage in which to bargain down Lee’s contract demand. Then again, Walsh wanted the veteran Tim Thomas, but Thomas found a better deal than Walsh offered. With Q, Thomas and Malik Rose gone from last year’s team, Walsh is looking for one or two veterans, perhaps Tinsley & Williams,(previously Kidd or Hill) to mix with the youth core: Gallo, Chandler, Hill, & Douglas.

    Comment by Post-up Prince | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • Prince,

      I don’t see why Walsh needs more leverage with Lee.Walsh is in the driver’s seat and Williams is not in competition for Lee’s roster spot.Walsh is very much control with Lee’s contract demand.Lee has no where else to go(no Portland,no Memphis,no OKC)and if he did the Knicks can match any offer.

      Comment by DLTKnicks | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  20. DLT:

    Your right that Lee really has no place to go except to try Europe or sit out the season. If Lee decides to split or sit out, Williams is insurance for the power-forward spot. I am hoping that Lee will stay, even at the one-year veteran’s minimum ($2.7 million), although he is worth much more, but not a much as his agent has been seeking.

    I am not sure what Walsh is working on, but right now neither N8 nor Lee are signed for next season. Thus far Lee and N8’s agents have not been able to find teams to make any offers or work out a sign and trade. Forcing both N8 and Lee to sign the veteran’s minimum $2.7 million will make two unhappy campers. Could there be some NBA ownership collusion going on?

    Comment by Post-up Prince | July 31, 2009 | Reply

    • PUP,
      Collusion, you ask? Conspiracy? NBA Scriptology? IT would not be the first time. See JVG & NYK vs. Camby. See MN vs. Spreewell. See NBA vs. J. Tinsley. Tman and Statesman know what’s good. The Knicks are dead. Long live the Knickerbockers.

      Sill Steady after all these years.

      Comment by Steady | August 1, 2009 | Reply

      • OBTW,
        Add NBA vs. White Chocolate J. Williams.


        Comment by Steady | August 1, 2009

  21. I’m diggin’ the commentary. Great reads.

    Comment by livesinnewjersey | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  22. Walsh seems to be in the drivers seat, but if he allows these guys to take the qualifying offer and they become restricted free agents next year, Walsh loses because the Knicks would have developed these players and received nothing in return.

    Lee’s best bet is to have another stellar year so that he can get paid in 2010 when more teams are under the CAP and other uber-players decide to stay with their teams. Lee would be able to command about a $9 million average next year. He will still be the most versatile player on the Knicks in 2009-2010.

    Nate is a little trickier I think. He is the best offensive player on the Knicks, but he doesn’t get the respect he deserves for his game (selfishness is an NBA standard — don’t knock Nate in one breath and praise the arrival of AI in the next fart). Nate is a sign and trade candidate waiting to happen.

    The problem does not seem to be the player’s lack of value, but Walsh’s refusal to approve a sign and trade that eats cap space. Both Lee and Nate should be pissed especially since Walsh indicated he was willing to spit away cap space for a litte Session or Kidd or Hill.

    Who do you think ultimately wins this stand-off?

    Comment by livesinnewjersey | July 31, 2009 | Reply

  23. Lives does it really matter who wins this stand-off?
    The conculsion is still a bandaide instead of sutures
    trying to close the incision of a open heart surgery.
    Whats lefts after whatever outcome is we still SUCK!
    It’s great to be blogging with Steady and Postup again
    as they are both “KINGS of DA FKING HILL.”

    Comment by Peaceman | August 1, 2009 | Reply

    • Awww! Sooki-Sooki now! Maybe BARF Johnson, Jay Bee, St. George (to name just a few) have transformed here on this space because they too are GREAT reads on the blogosphere. You will note that the “Indie” movement began with you heading out to make your own keys at Lowes which you promptly handed to LIVES. (LOL) Like true Kings of the F’n Hill.

      The King is dead. Long live the Kings of the F’n Hill.


      Comment by Steady | August 1, 2009 | Reply


    Comment by Peaceman | August 1, 2009 | Reply

    • Much appreciated Peace. As an Admin with keys, go on and give the world the America version of Horse with no Name covered by the G.R.E.A.T. MJ. Fitting way to end my month-long tribute. As long as there is a mirror for men/women to look into, MJ’s legacy/influence/impact LIVES.

      The King is dead. Long live the King.


      Comment by Steady | August 1, 2009 | Reply

  25. Folks,

    Let me know if you are experiencing any difficulty following the convo with the three deep comment boxes. Personally, I like the three-deep commentary because it allows replies to flow directly from the comments, but it dawned on me that some folks may have trouble following the conversation since it is not linear.

    Let me know what you think?

    Comment by livesinnewjersey | August 1, 2009 | Reply

    • IT works Admin…Steady able to follow by subscribing to the feed (if interested in a response). Then, if any noise comes up from something Statesman2 posted, an e-alert pointing to the exact comment and banter between the bloggers is sent to subscribbers. Nice feature.

      Off-line, gimme the bullistics on the sucka who hijacked your e-mail and posted here.

      Long Lives the Fanatics!


      Comment by Steady | August 1, 2009 | Reply

  26. Lives:

    No problem in following the commentary. Thanks for the recognition Peace. This blog has kept my spirits up despite the dismal outlook for team’s prospects in 09 -10.

    Given the ever-so-slow maneuverings of Walsh this summer, it is difficult to fathom his management style. Walsh seems to wants an improvement at point guard but is fixated on his 2010 plan, so that he just waits and waits. Now that July has passed, he can no longer utilize or benefit from the Balkman exception. He gave away Balkman to make room for Robeson and has hothing in return. He seems to want some veterans, thus the talks with Kidd, Hill and Tinsley, and now wants a look at J. Williams. He stalls and lets Lee and N8 languish in frustration with minimum qualifying offers; and won’t commit as yet to Sessions, whom his own coach wants as well as many of us, because of the price or the number of years involved.

    I guess being from Indiana, where the pace of life is slower, has some virtues. While I do not expect him to act in a New York minute, his sense of timing is interminable and in my view detrimental for the players involved along with their agents whom he dangles, puts out feelers, or
    makes minimum offers. I imagine that players on both the Knicks and other teams, watching this charade, must have reservations about wanting to play for the organization.
    Moreover, the NY sports media appears to have bought into the 2010 plan and is willing to wait a whole year before it appraises or criticizes. A nice way to keep one’s job: just tell everyone you have a plan that will lead to Nirvana, so be patient.

    Comment by Post-up Prince | August 1, 2009 | Reply

    • What the team may need or want in the interim to transition towards 2010 versus what RIP Van Donnie Tortoises’ fixation on that 2010 year is his conundrum.

      Well said Prince

      Comment by orangeandblue1 | August 1, 2009 | Reply

  27. O&B,

    I definitely agree. The negatives to getting a Kidd or a Hill far outweigh the positives.

    And we are handling Lee quite poorly.


    “don’t knock Nate in one breath and praise the arrival of AI in the next fart”

    Lives! Always the poet!

    Comment by MODI | August 2, 2009 | Reply

  28. Audio began playing anytime I opened this website, so frustrating!

    Comment by Gina Russler | August 8, 2011 | Reply

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